Nignaz

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rhecht wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:54 pm There are a lot of unknowns from a historical perspective. I'm not going to disprove anything that was written but will add food for thought.

1. Just because there was a pocket of use in Constantinople in the 15th century (1453) does not mean the Jews knew anything about it - exile and lack of internet make life difficult. See here: https://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/HistoryMesorahNignaz.pdf (esp. Herzog references). We take internet, telephone, air flights etc. for granted and forget that lots of info wasn't as available back then. For example, see how German/Italian Jews met Yemenite Jews for the first time in 1901. That's the turn of the 20th century and even then this was a revelation: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/201 ... db60410000
 .

 
Well at least the Aruch knew what it was. He writes that argaman comes from the murex, yet he's painfully silent when it comes to techeiles.

 
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Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:02 am 1. If I'm not mistaken, there was a thriving murex industry in Egypt during the times of the Rambam, which raises difficulty why he did not know of it.




 
And if you are mistaken?
 
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MIlanH wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:06 am
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:02 am 1. If I'm not mistaken, there was a thriving murex industry in Egypt during the times of the Rambam, which raises difficulty why he did not know of it.
And if you are mistaken?
 
Then there was no murex industry thriving in Egypt during the times of the Rambam.
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MIlanH wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:04 am
rhecht wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:54 pm There are a lot of unknowns from a historical perspective. I'm not going to disprove anything that was written but will add food for thought.

1. Just because there was a pocket of use in Constantinople in the 15th century (1453) does not mean the Jews knew anything about it - exile and lack of internet make life difficult. See here: https://www.tekhelet.com/pdf/HistoryMesorahNignaz.pdf (esp. Herzog references). We take internet, telephone, air flights etc. for granted and forget that lots of info wasn't as available back then. For example, see how German/Italian Jews met Yemenite Jews for the first time in 1901. That's the turn of the 20th century and even then this was a revelation: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/201 ... db60410000
 .


 
Well at least the Aruch knew what it was. He writes that argaman comes from the murex, yet he's painfully silent when it comes to techeiles.

 

 
MilanH, this was thought-provoking!

On the other hand, perhaps the identification was TOO obvious and traditional, for example, the fact of the word "purpura" being unchanged (albeit illegal to produce, or the method unknown), as the Ramban says והתכלת גם היום לא ירים איש את ידו ללבוש חוץ ממלך גוים.
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Nosson wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:09 pmMilanH, this was thought-provoking!

On the other hand, perhaps the identification was TOO obvious and traditional, for example, the fact of the word "purpura" being unchanged (albeit illegal to produce, or the method unknown), as the Ramban says והתכלת גם היום לא ירים איש את ידו ללבוש חוץ ממלך גוים.

 
How would "purpura" suggest chilazon?
The Ramban just says that in his times (medieval) blue was a royal color, and the common folk wouldn't dare wear it (not that it was forbidden). 
 
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Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:02 am
MIlanH wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:06 am
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:02 am 1. If I'm not mistaken, there was a thriving murex industry in Egypt during the times of the Rambam, which raises difficulty why he did not know of it.
And if you are mistaken?


 
Then there was no murex industry thriving in Egypt during the times of the Rambam.


 
I don't remember all the details, but I believe in this case you are mistaken. From what I remember, there was some mention of a dye industry there, but I believe it wasn't related to the murex.
I may be mistaken as well, this is just what I remember. Sorry I don't have more details 
 
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MIlanH wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:13 pm
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:02 am
MIlanH wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:06 am
And if you are mistaken?



 
Then there was no murex industry thriving in Egypt during the times of the Rambam.



 
I don't remember all the details, but I believe in this case you are mistaken. From what I remember, there was some mention of a dye industry there, but I believe it wasn't related to the murex.
I may be mistaken as well, this is just what I remember. Sorry I don't have more details 
 

 
a) let's tone down any verbal attacks.
b) while it's a fact that murex dyeing occurred until the 1400s, we have no clue of other important details, such as how frequent and mainstream it was, such as if Jews had access to this highly secretive guild since the 7th century, etc. The Radzyner Rebbe seemed to assume that Rambam knew what the Chilazon was since he eloquently described the shade of the blood, and how else would he know? But others assume he didn't. Another question to ask is, did Rambam wear Tzitzis during his lifetime or not, if Tzitzis to him with Techeiles was one combined mitzva and without Techeiles, you simply weren't fulfilling the mitzva at all? Sometimes the answer from a historical standpoint is, we have no answer.
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Mr Genugshoin was referring to specific evidence of a dyeing industry in Egypt. I recall reading about it but I forgot the details. There is indeed no point in speculation. 
 
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rhecht wrote: Thu Mar 09, 2023 9:23 pm
R' Avrohom ben Horambam writes explicitly that we do NOT know what the chilazon is, the Radzyner didn't see that
 
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From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple
The production of Murex purple for the Byzantine court came to an abrupt end with the sack of Constantinople in 1204, the critical episode of the Fourth Crusade. David Jacoby concludes that "no Byzantine emperor nor any Latin ruler in former Byzantine territories could muster the financial resources required for the pursuit of murex purple production. On the other hand, murex fishing and dyeing with genuine purple are attested for Egypt in the tenth to 13th centuries."[30] 
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