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Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:25 pm
by Mr. Genugshoin
Nosson wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:18 pm
Why no proof of Techeiles used for blue by Goyim?
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I already linked to a painting of Charlemagne and son wearing blue cloaks.
What's wrong with that?
That's from medieval times (rishonim), what's the proof for Roman times?
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2023 12:36 am
by MIlanH
Nosson wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 11:18 pm
Why no proof of Techeiles used for blue by Goyim?
A picture is worth a thousand words.
I already linked to a painting of Charlemagne and son wearing blue cloaks.
What's wrong with that?
I did not see that link, is there proof that it was blue from murex?
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:19 am
by Nosson
Mr. Genugshoin:
I mean to extrapolate...
MilanH:
How else did they get blue pre-synthetic dies?
Moreso, if the blue came about in any other way, it wouldn't be "royal", so they wouldn't do it anyway.
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:20 am
by Nosson
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:43 pm
by MIlanH
Nosson wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:19 am...
MilanH:
How else did they get blue pre-synthetic dies?
Could it have been from indigo?
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:24 pm
by Mr. Genugshoin
The question would be, how old is this painting?
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:54 pm
by Nosson
MIlanH wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:43 pm
Nosson wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:19 am...
MilanH:
How else did they get blue pre-synthetic dies?
Could it have been from indigo?
... if the blue came about in any other way, it wouldn't be "royal", so they wouldn't do it anyway.
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2023 11:16 pm
by Mr. Genugshoin
Nosson wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:54 pm
MIlanH wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 2:43 pm
Nosson wrote: ↑Sun Mar 12, 2023 8:19 am...
MilanH:
How else did they get blue pre-synthetic dies?
Could it have been from indigo?
... if the blue came about in any other way, it wouldn't be "royal", so they wouldn't do it anyway.
Blue was only considered royal from 12th century on, and the importance was the color, not its source
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_in_c ... ltramarine
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2023 7:29 pm
by micha
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
The question is is there evidence of murex trunculus being used historically for blue
If there were, it would strong evidence that the banded dye-murex (Hexaplex trunculus) is NOT the chilazon.
After all, we are looking for a process that was lost. If there were evidence that it was a fish with a shell that made the blue most people take for granted tekheiles is supposed to be (right or wrong), how would the identity of the chilazon have remained lost long enough to be entirely forgotten? Someone would have found record of the trunculus producing the dye they expect tekheiles to be made with.
Our hunt would be for a source of blue from a sea creature with a shell that people lost track of. Either because we didn't realize that was the right shade of blue or because we didn't realize the sea creature made it.
Re: Color of murex trunculus dye
Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2023 5:45 am
by Mr. Genugshoin
I don't follow your logic. Either we are looking for a creature that went extinct, or a creature that exists, is recorded in history as being used for blue, whose production stopped for a long enough period of time. If we have no historical proof of the trunculus being used for blue, why would we assume it is the chilazon?
