Gedolim Against Techeiles

Username: rhecht
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Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:01 am kruger cj.PNGHere is the Kruger edition for reference. The [correct] MS version states "iantina" which translates to violet
 
 

 
Like murex trunculus colors, hyacinth has a wide range of blues-violets. Hyacinthina and Techeiles both were supercolors which included a broad range of single colors we identify with today.
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Username: MIlanH
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As a previous commentator mentioned, the correct version in the Codex is ianthina, and not hyacinthina. While they sound similar, it's a different word. Ianthina was a commonly used word in those days, and always refers to purple. Hyacinthina is a famously hard color to translate, (and indeed appears nowhere other then in scripture and the various translations, when reffering to a color).see for axample how Rav Herzog proves that they are 2 different colors.

 https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... -tekhelet/
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Ianthina originated in Greek, and is based on the word "ion"-purple. Whereas hyacinthina is not a Greek word (and it's source is not entirely clear). See following two links  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ἰάνθινος#Ancient_Greek https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ὑάκινθος#Ancient_Greek
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MIlanH wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:36 am As a previous commentator mentioned, the correct version in the Codex is ianthina, and not hyacinthina. While they sound similar, it's a different word. Ianthina was a commonly used word in those days, and always refers to purple. Hyacinthina is a famously hard color to translate, (and indeed appears nowhere other then in scripture and the various translations, when reffering to a color).see for axample how Rav Herzog proves that they are 2 different colors.

 https://porphyrology.com/view-doctorate ... -tekhelet/

 
A couple of points:

1. Techeiles has referred to a dyed wool and consists of a "supercolor" ranging from many blues and blue purples. We especially see this today with the Murex snail species dyeing many shades of specific colors based on what subgroup they are. Branderis makes pink-orange purple, trunculus makes blue-purple, and haemastoma makes more of a blood red.
2. The piece shared shows R' Herzog distinguishing Ianthina from Amethystina. There's zero doubt that the Amethyst is consistently purple.
3. A quick search on Google Photos for "ianthina" shows a bug which has this classification, and we see that it is of the blue-purple range.
ianthina-google-search-minified3-min.png
 
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Username: MIlanH
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1. You've mentioned this theory a few times of techeiles being some sort of "supercolor". Now while it may be a possibility, you have not brought any proofs to that. So you can try to say that as a way of wiggling out of all the problems with the murex theory, but if you have no proof then you can't prove anything with that. 
with regards to ianthina, this is agreed by all linguists to mean purple, and is backed up extensively from ancient writings. I am unaware of any disagreement on the matter. You obviously can't prove anything from a bug today, you gotta do far better research than that.
Though I am not ruling out the possibility that it's a color on the blue/purple spectrum, since that can technically be called purple.
Either way , it's notoriously difficult to pin down the exact translation of ancient colors.
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Violet is a bluish purplish color
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Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:01 am kruger cj.PNGHere is the Kruger edition for reference. The [correct] MS version states "iantina" which translates to violet
 
 

 
Doesn't make a difference what it translates as; the same word is used by the Septuagint as translation for techeiles. 
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chaimo wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:03 am
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:01 am kruger cj.PNGHere is the Kruger edition for reference. The [correct] MS version states "iantina" which translates to violet
 
 


 
Doesn't make a difference what it translates as; the same word is used by the Septuagint as translation for techeiles. 

 
Nope. The Septuagint uses the word "hyacinthina", not "iantina"
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Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:03 am
chaimo wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 9:03 am
Mr. wrote:Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:01 am kruger cj.PNGHere is the Kruger edition for reference. The [correct] MS version states "iantina" which translates to violet
 
 



 
Doesn't make a difference what it translates as; the same word is used by the Septuagint as translation for techeiles. 


 
Nope. The Septuagint uses the word "hyacinthina", not "iantina"

 
The Septuagint translates Techeiles as Yakinthos/Iakanthos.
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rhecht wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 6:18 pm The Septuagint translates Techeiles as Yakinthos/Iakanthos.

 
Yes, that is the same word as hyacinthina with a different suffix
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